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« La Catalogne pourrait parfaitement être un Etat dans l’Union européenne»

ArturMas, le président du gouvernement régional de Catalogne, n’exclut pas un référendum

Entretien

Depuis qu’il a ramené la Catalogne dans le giron nationaliste, en novembre2010, Artur Mas, le président de son gouvernement régional, a proclamé l’ouverture d’une phase de « transition nationale». Dans l’histoire jamais paisible des relations entre Barcelone et Madrid, elle vise à obtenir pour la région autonome « le droit de décider de son avenir».

A l’heure des coupes budgétaires et de la lutte contre les déficits publics, M.Mas souhaiterait arracher à Madrid un « pacte fiscal » qui donnerait à la Catalogne l’autonomie financière.

Si Madrid refuse, il n’exclut pas un référendum d’autodétermination.

L’heure est-elle venue pour la Catalogne de s’émanciper de l’Espagne?
La Catalogne dispose de l’autonomie depuis trente ans. Cela a plutôt bien fonctionné mais cette étape touche à sa fin. Elle ne nous permettra pas d’obtenir plus d’autogouvernement. Il faut tracer un nouveau chemin, une transition nationale guidée par le principe suivant: la Catalogne est une nation, elle a le droit de décider de son avenir. Dans ce schéma, nous pouvons rester près de l’Espagne, y compris dedans. Ou plus loin, y compris dehors. C’est ce qu’il faudra déterminer dans les prochaines années.

La Catalogne serait-elle prête à voter pour l’indépendance?
Une partie de la population a toujours été indépendantiste et une autre s’est convertie à cette option à cause des difficultés pour la Catalogne à trouver sa place dans l’Espagne. Il y a ceux qui étaient dans le train et ceux qui y sont montés.

Etes-vous dans ce train?
Oui,à titrepersonnel. Je considère que la Catalogne pourrait parfaitement être un Etat dans l’Union européenne. La Hollande du Sud, comme disent certains. Mais politiquement, que la réalité est bien plus compliquée.Parce que la Catalogne est une société très mélangée, dont plus de la moitié de la populationa des origines espagnoles ou extra-espagnoles. Parce que depuis cinq cents ans nous appartenons à l’Etat espagnol – depuis trois cents ans par la force, après avoir perdu des batailles et des guerres. Parce que beaucoup d’entreprises catalanes ont comme marché naturel l’Espagne. Il y a beaucoup d’intérêts croisés.

Quelle serait la solution?
Nous voulons un statut différent et nous pensons qu’il a du sens dans la construction européenne actuelle.Notre idée de l’Europe du futur, c’est plus d’Europe, moins d’Etats centraux et plus de gouvernements territoriaux. Une Europe plus fédérale avec plus de pouvoir à Bruxelles, moins de pouvoir à Paris, à Madrid ou à Berlin, mais plus de pouvoir à Barcelone ou à Toulouse. Les Etats traditionnels ne seront plus exactement pareils. Ils vont perdre du pouvoir au bénéfice de l’Europe. Si un jour nous avons un Etat, nous n’aurons pas d’armée, ni de politique extérieure propre, ni lecontrôle des frontières et des douanes, ni une monnaie, ni une banque centrale. Mais nous aurions les politiques de proximité, les services publics de base, les infrastructures, la sécurité intérieure et la fiscalité. En fait, si nous obtenions de Madrid un pacte fiscal, nous arriverions presque à cela sans avoir à faire beaucoup plus. C’est pourquoi le pacte fiscal est une solution pour la Catalogne mais aussi pour l’Espagne.

«Notre idée de l’Europe du futur,
c’est plus d’Europe,
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Vous dites que si vous aviez un « pacte fiscal», vous n’auriez pas à faire de coupes budgétaires. N’est-ce pas une façon d’utiliser la crise pour faire monter l’indépendantisme?
Ma première priorité, avant même le pacte fiscal, est de créer des emplois et de relever l’économie. Pour cela, le pacte fiscal nous aiderait. Si nous disposions d’une plus grandepartde la richesse que nous produisons, nous pourrions améliorer la situation difficile dans laquelle nous nous trouvons. Et si nous nous trouvons dans cette situation, c’estparceque l’Espagne draine une part excessive de nos ressources. Chaque année, le déficit fiscal, c’est-à-dire la différence entre ce que la Catalogne apporte à Madridpar les impôts et les cotisations et ce que nous recevons enéchange, se situe entre 8 % et 9 % de notre PIB. En Allemagne, le déficit des Länder est limité à 4 %. C’est ce que nous demandons. Si la Catalogne était un Etat indépendant, nous aurions entre 10 et 15 milliards d’euros de plus. Avec le pacte fiscal, c’est-à-dire un déficit fiscal réduit de moitié, nous résoudrions nos problèmes de finances publiques. Nos mesures d’économie représentent environ 2,5milliards d’euros, soit un cinquième denotre déficit fiscal.

Le pacte fiscal ne serait-il pas la fin du principe de solidarité entre régions espagnoles?
Non. Une fois les impôts collectés, nous verserions au gouvernement espagnol des « frais de retour» destinés à payerà l’Etat les services qu’il rend à la Catalogne, mais aussi une part de redistribution pour les régions moins productives. Ce n’est pas très différent de ce que proposent les Ecossais au Royaume-Uni.

Quel calendrier vous fixez-vous pour obtenir ce pacte fiscal?
Nous présenterons le projet cette année au Parlement catalan. Nous y disposons déjà d’une majorité absolue pour cette mesure, mais nous souhaitons un consensus très ample. Entre 70% et 80 % de la population soutiennent le pacte fiscal, mais les partis sont plus divisés. Puis, fin 2012 ou début 2013, nous le présenterons au gouvernement central et aux partis espagnols. A partir de là, on verra.

Si Madrid refuse, envisagez-vous un référendum?
Nous n’écartons pas cette option mais elle n’est pas décidée. Nous allonsd’abord essayer d’aller au bout de la voie du pacte fiscal.

Comment peser sur Madrid alors que le gouvernement conservateur de Mariano Rajoy dispose d’une majorité absolue au Parlement?
Certes, le PP n’a pas besoin de nous. Nous n’avons plus la force que nous avions auparavant à Madrid, mais en Catalogne nous sommes plus forts que nous ne l’avons jamais été. Une chose compense l’autre. En Catalogne, nous aurions plus de soutien pour un référendum.

Le budget catalan pour 2012 prévoit une réduction de la rémunération des fonctionnaires après des coupes sévères dans les services publics en 2011. Beaucoup de Catalans se plaignent…
Nous avons fait ce que nous devions faire sans menacer l’essence de l’Etat-providence. Nous avons économisé 1,8milliard d’euros en 2011.Cette année,nous réduirons encore nos dépenses de 0,7%, essentiellement grâce à une baisse des salaires des 230000 employés publics catalans. En deux ans, nous aurons réduit nos dépenses de8 %. D’autre part, nous allons augmenter nos revenus grâce à de nouvelles taxes, notamment une taxe touristique et une taxe sur les ordonnances médicales. Nous pourrions faire plus si nous avions plus de compétences!
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